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	<title>Comments on: Geller&#8217;s Bell Park Project Moves On To Option B</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2996</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The size of the Option A footprint is totally irrelevant.  The downfall of this scheme was the pimp architect and the greedy developer.  If they would have collectively done what was right for the building and for the city instead of what was right for their egos, they would have gotten through the LDDRB.  Instead, the Fentress ego turned the project into a personal mission to support his pseudo &quot;starchitect&quot; persona - which is a myth solely of his own making - and the developer refused to reduce the size of the gargantuan balconies that made an otherwise slender building (7,500 SF footprint and 34 stories tall!!!) look fat and short.  Only Fentress could pull that one off!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Frankly, if ole Buzz had simply gone with a less eogtistical architect, he&#039;d probably be breaking ground on his sales center as we speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The size of the Option A footprint is totally irrelevant.  The downfall of this scheme was the pimp architect and the greedy developer.  If they would have collectively done what was right for the building and for the city instead of what was right for their egos, they would have gotten through the LDDRB.  Instead, the Fentress ego turned the project into a personal mission to support his pseudo &quot;starchitect&quot; persona &#8211; which is a myth solely of his own making &#8211; and the developer refused to reduce the size of the gargantuan balconies that made an otherwise slender building (7,500 SF footprint and 34 stories tall!!!) look fat and short.  Only Fentress could pull that one off!</p>
<p>Frankly, if ole Buzz had simply gone with a less eogtistical architect, he&#39;d probably be breaking ground on his sales center as we speak.</p>
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		<title>By: beyonddc</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2941</link>
		<dc:creator>beyonddc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Another thing:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&#039;t necessarily disagree that the developer here got a bum deal with the land swap. Doing that in good faith, going through a long regulatory process, and then being shot down at the last minute *is* unfair.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But again, that&#039;s not the LoDo board&#039;s fault. It&#039;s the City Council&#039;s fault for enacting a dysfunctional process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thing:</p>
<p>I don&#39;t necessarily disagree that the developer here got a bum deal with the land swap. Doing that in good faith, going through a long regulatory process, and then being shot down at the last minute *is* unfair.</p>
<p>But again, that&#39;s not the LoDo board&#39;s fault. It&#39;s the City Council&#39;s fault for enacting a dysfunctional process.</p>
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		<title>By: beyonddc</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2940</link>
		<dc:creator>beyonddc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2940</guid>
		<description>Anon 04:39 - I agree that poorly-executed historicism is very bad... almost as bad as poorly-executed modernism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The thing is, I&#039;m not so much a historicist as an ornamentalist. I don&#039;t want historic buildings, I want contemporary buildings with human-scaled ornament. I will &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tortigallas.com/images/THUMBS/84732/84732_Lf.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;THIS&lt;/a&gt; over &lt;a href=&quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/DSCN2650.jpg/290px-DSCN2650.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;THIS&lt;/a&gt; 10 times out of 10. I come off as a historicist because right now the contemporary architecture community is not very interested in human-scaled ornament.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, I think I&#039;ve been pretty reasonable in this thread. My point here hasn&#039;t been to complain about the design of this tower (though I do think it would go out of style quickly), as much as it&#039;s been to point out that the LoDo board didn&#039;t do anything wrong here. They&#039;re charged with a specific task, which they carried out to the letter. If the city feels this particular development outweighs the task set before the LoDo board, or that this site shouldn&#039;t be held to the LoDo standards, that&#039;s totally fine, but the onus to make that type of decision is on the City Council. It&#039;s certainly not up to the LoDo board to assume powers it doesn&#039;t have!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Whatever our aesthetic differences, we should not be condemning the LoDo board for doing its job. Condemn the process for failing to account for exceptions or failing to define what we want from LoDo, and demand the City Council fix those problems, but for goodness sake don&#039;t attack public volunteers for doing exactly what the city asked them to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon 04:39 &#8211; I agree that poorly-executed historicism is very bad&#8230; almost as bad as poorly-executed modernism.</p>
<p>The thing is, I&#39;m not so much a historicist as an ornamentalist. I don&#39;t want historic buildings, I want contemporary buildings with human-scaled ornament. I will <a href="http://www.tortigallas.com/images/THUMBS/84732/84732_Lf.jpg" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">THIS</a> over <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/DSCN2650.jpg/290px-DSCN2650.jpg" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">THIS</a> 10 times out of 10. I come off as a historicist because right now the contemporary architecture community is not very interested in human-scaled ornament.</p>
<p>Anyway, I think I&#39;ve been pretty reasonable in this thread. My point here hasn&#39;t been to complain about the design of this tower (though I do think it would go out of style quickly), as much as it&#39;s been to point out that the LoDo board didn&#39;t do anything wrong here. They&#39;re charged with a specific task, which they carried out to the letter. If the city feels this particular development outweighs the task set before the LoDo board, or that this site shouldn&#39;t be held to the LoDo standards, that&#39;s totally fine, but the onus to make that type of decision is on the City Council. It&#39;s certainly not up to the LoDo board to assume powers it doesn&#39;t have!</p>
<p>Whatever our aesthetic differences, we should not be condemning the LoDo board for doing its job. Condemn the process for failing to account for exceptions or failing to define what we want from LoDo, and demand the City Council fix those problems, but for goodness sake don&#39;t attack public volunteers for doing exactly what the city asked them to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2939</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2939</guid>
		<description>Uh oh ,here comes mister negative...and I enjoy being negative when it comes to public/private sector communique if it will only cause possible insight. I really don&#039;t care in the least if anyone thinks what I have to comment is positive in purpose. As if purpose is single in dimension or not. I guess that&#039;s because it&#039;s fulfilling to me to know that people can at least read since that would mean they could actually think as well )&gt;such an uncharted sphere of conscious&lt;(. Here&#039;s my tidbit Betties: Denver tries ewh so hard to get back it&#039;s original turn of the nineteenth century spirit with lots of pedestrian colour etc. Reminiscent historic low rise bulk...yes hopefully like the older Sugar building. Yet it doesn&#039;t seem to look enough at the psychological dimension that downtowns provided in those days. Which had more to do with &#039;numbers&#039; than money. Even the well-to-doers were intrigued with going downtown to observe the poorer and subconsciously that is part of why they would go downtown, not just for business but to be simply be fascinated by the &#039;mass&#039; of people. Remember the DNC crowds and the energy? In my opinion Denver will be extremely hard pressed to re-create anything close to the city it was before the trolley system was ripped out by &#039;big bizz&#039;. What are we going to do make it a biking only downtown? Sporty! (The parking lots would be smaller.) So the answer to that is trolleys again, yes it is mmhmmm. I know it&#039;s a bit off point but not really, because my point in all this chatter is question the true &#039;purpose&#039; of the LODO Design Review Board? And why is the city council limp about this? So no matter what you do in lower downtown whether it&#039;s a sleek eclectic high rise or a bulky mass of law offices it won&#039;t bring any more bodies downtown really without fluidity of transpo within all the core neighborhoods.  Well because as I understand it we as a community of planners and designers are generally and &#039;fashionably&#039; &#039;anti-auto&#039;, which I think is a good thing, at least until they are mostly transformed to alternative fuels anyway, cough cough. Since just being anti-auto in attitude isn&#039;t the solution. My negative insertion is to just give up. No one will ever seems to be satisfied anyway, whether you sit on a board or not. The city died in spirit when it was rendered accessible mostly to corporate monthly parkers. Maybe all the professional officinados that talk a mean talk about pedestrianizing downtown should walk their talk and walk more downtown...the fresh air helps you think, NEW thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;DEEPFLOAD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh oh ,here comes mister negative&#8230;and I enjoy being negative when it comes to public/private sector communique if it will only cause possible insight. I really don&#39;t care in the least if anyone thinks what I have to comment is positive in purpose. As if purpose is single in dimension or not. I guess that&#39;s because it&#39;s fulfilling to me to know that people can at least read since that would mean they could actually think as well )&gt;such an uncharted sphere of conscious&lt;(. Here&#39;s my tidbit Betties: Denver tries ewh so hard to get back it&#39;s original turn of the nineteenth century spirit with lots of pedestrian colour etc. Reminiscent historic low rise bulk&#8230;yes hopefully like the older Sugar building. Yet it doesn&#39;t seem to look enough at the psychological dimension that downtowns provided in those days. Which had more to do with &#39;numbers&#39; than money. Even the well-to-doers were intrigued with going downtown to observe the poorer and subconsciously that is part of why they would go downtown, not just for business but to be simply be fascinated by the &#39;mass&#39; of people. Remember the DNC crowds and the energy? In my opinion Denver will be extremely hard pressed to re-create anything close to the city it was before the trolley system was ripped out by &#39;big bizz&#39;. What are we going to do make it a biking only downtown? Sporty! (The parking lots would be smaller.) So the answer to that is trolleys again, yes it is mmhmmm. I know it&#39;s a bit off point but not really, because my point in all this chatter is question the true &#39;purpose&#39; of the LODO Design Review Board? And why is the city council limp about this? So no matter what you do in lower downtown whether it&#39;s a sleek eclectic high rise or a bulky mass of law offices it won&#39;t bring any more bodies downtown really without fluidity of transpo within all the core neighborhoods.  Well because as I understand it we as a community of planners and designers are generally and &#39;fashionably&#39; &#39;anti-auto&#39;, which I think is a good thing, at least until they are mostly transformed to alternative fuels anyway, cough cough. Since just being anti-auto in attitude isn&#39;t the solution. My negative insertion is to just give up. No one will ever seems to be satisfied anyway, whether you sit on a board or not. The city died in spirit when it was rendered accessible mostly to corporate monthly parkers. Maybe all the professional officinados that talk a mean talk about pedestrianizing downtown should walk their talk and walk more downtown&#8230;the fresh air helps you think, NEW thoughts.<br />DEEPFLOAD</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2938</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2938</guid>
		<description>Go Buzz Go, never ever give up! Or for that matter settle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go Buzz Go, never ever give up! Or for that matter settle.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2937</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2937</guid>
		<description>Wow, Buzz! How about another land swap and not with the city either. Personally I think LODO is overrated and your beautiful tower might look better somewhere else. Just leave that land to the parking lots.  With the economy in a several years long recovery we shouldn&#039;t be so pissy with our perfections and be glad to support a well backed development. I think your tower would be striking addition anywhere near or in the downtown proper. Say the Golden Triangle or North of downtown on Broadway near the light rail line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Buzz! How about another land swap and not with the city either. Personally I think LODO is overrated and your beautiful tower might look better somewhere else. Just leave that land to the parking lots.  With the economy in a several years long recovery we shouldn&#39;t be so pissy with our perfections and be glad to support a well backed development. I think your tower would be striking addition anywhere near or in the downtown proper. Say the Golden Triangle or North of downtown on Broadway near the light rail line.</p>
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		<title>By: Freddie</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2936</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2936</guid>
		<description>Joe:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&#039;t mind a low-rise one bit and definitely understand that the city benefits from street level improvements that add culture and activity more so that it does from height.  But I also don&#039;t like to see height shut down unnecessarily by an unreasonable bureaucratic process.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;sc48:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But this ain&#039;t really Lodo; it&#039;s merley an ugly parking lot just beyond the edge of Lodo. A high-rise would work perfectly here.  Massing the project into something more slender actually does better to preserve the view of real Lodo.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And the truth is, height gives more significance to a building with bold design such as the one proposed here.  A bold addition to a relatively bland skyline is very valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:</p>
<p>I don&#39;t mind a low-rise one bit and definitely understand that the city benefits from street level improvements that add culture and activity more so that it does from height.  But I also don&#39;t like to see height shut down unnecessarily by an unreasonable bureaucratic process.</p>
<p>sc48:</p>
<p>But this ain&#39;t really Lodo; it&#39;s merley an ugly parking lot just beyond the edge of Lodo. A high-rise would work perfectly here.  Massing the project into something more slender actually does better to preserve the view of real Lodo.</p>
<p>And the truth is, height gives more significance to a building with bold design such as the one proposed here.  A bold addition to a relatively bland skyline is very valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2935</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 08:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2935</guid>
		<description>And we thought the Bell Tower was cool and crazy and signature. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Check this out...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dynamicarchitecture.net/home.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Moscow and Dubai...could we get one in Denver?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And we thought the Bell Tower was cool and crazy and signature. </p>
<p>Check this out&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dynamicarchitecture.net/home.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dynamicarchitecture.net/home.html</a></p>
<p>Moscow and Dubai&#8230;could we get one in Denver?</p>
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		<title>By: votrer</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2934</link>
		<dc:creator>votrer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 02:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2934</guid>
		<description>whoa! do we have a record number of comments here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>whoa! do we have a record number of comments here?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to.html/comment-page-2#comment-2933</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://denverinfill.com/wordpress/2008/11/gellers-bell-park-project-moves-on-to-option-b.html#comment-2933</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m extremely late to the party here, and Anon 11:30 said some of what I would have said had I commented earlier.  To me, LoDo runs between 14th and 20th.  The whole purpose of the design review board, as I understand it, is to protect the historical integrity of LoDo, to ensure that nothing gets built in the district that seriously detracts from the historical structures.  And I think they&#039;ve generally done a good job of that, particularly in recent years as architects&#039; responses to the historic quality of the area evolved from an earlier tendency toward pastiche historicism to more contemporary, interesting buildings.  I will argue with beyonddc forever on this, I&#039;m sure: a well-designed and well-executed contemporary building (see: Sugar Cube) is always preferable to one that inexpertly incorporates faux-historic flourishes just to please someone who doesn&#039;t like contemporary architecture (see: the Larimer Square parking garage, just north of the Geller site on Market)(and the key word in the preceding sentence is &quot;inexpertly&quot;--I agree that 16 Market Center is a decent design, because the architects knew how to do historicism correctly).  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But that&#039;s getting off topic.  Why not petition City Council to remove this site from the district entirely?  Its inclusion has never made much sense to me, as there are NO historic buildings on the block bounded by Fourteenth, Speer, Larimer and Market.  LoDo is a big rectangle--this is like a Florida, dangling off of a lower corner of the main body of the district.  If I could go back in time, I&#039;d prevent the city from tearing down the old City Hall, which was a magnificent and historic pile of masonry.  But it&#039;s too late for that, and we&#039;re better off as a city with a project that expresses the culture and design preferences of our time, however &quot;trendy&quot; they may be.&lt;br /&gt;(Historymystery)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m extremely late to the party here, and Anon 11:30 said some of what I would have said had I commented earlier.  To me, LoDo runs between 14th and 20th.  The whole purpose of the design review board, as I understand it, is to protect the historical integrity of LoDo, to ensure that nothing gets built in the district that seriously detracts from the historical structures.  And I think they&#39;ve generally done a good job of that, particularly in recent years as architects&#39; responses to the historic quality of the area evolved from an earlier tendency toward pastiche historicism to more contemporary, interesting buildings.  I will argue with beyonddc forever on this, I&#39;m sure: a well-designed and well-executed contemporary building (see: Sugar Cube) is always preferable to one that inexpertly incorporates faux-historic flourishes just to please someone who doesn&#39;t like contemporary architecture (see: the Larimer Square parking garage, just north of the Geller site on Market)(and the key word in the preceding sentence is &quot;inexpertly&quot;&#8211;I agree that 16 Market Center is a decent design, because the architects knew how to do historicism correctly).  </p>
<p>But that&#39;s getting off topic.  Why not petition City Council to remove this site from the district entirely?  Its inclusion has never made much sense to me, as there are NO historic buildings on the block bounded by Fourteenth, Speer, Larimer and Market.  LoDo is a big rectangle&#8211;this is like a Florida, dangling off of a lower corner of the main body of the district.  If I could go back in time, I&#39;d prevent the city from tearing down the old City Hall, which was a magnificent and historic pile of masonry.  But it&#39;s too late for that, and we&#39;re better off as a city with a project that expresses the culture and design preferences of our time, however &quot;trendy&quot; they may be.<br />(Historymystery)</p>
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