The 16th Street Mall recently celebrated its 25th anniversary so it is time to take a serious look at the Mall’s future, what it was meant to be, what it has become, and what it should be in the future. To help with that, the City and the Downtown Denver Partnership hired the Urban Land Institute to provide some guidance regarding the Mall before the full 16th Street Plan project kicks off later this year. A few of the panel’s preliminary recommendations were just released. Here’s an article by the Post‘s Margaret Jackson about some of those recommendations: Expert Eyes Analyze 16th Street Mall Needs.
While replacing the “teletubby” trash bins and flower pots was one of the panel’s recommendations, their full report has not yet been released and will likely address some weightier issues. One of the decisions facing the Mall involves the granite pavers which RTD wants to replace with concrete. The ULI panel said keep the granite. I agree. One of the Mall’s special characteristics is the storefront-to-storefront paving in a single high-quality material. Replacing the bus lanes with concrete would demote the Mall to just another street with fancy sidewalks. Other issues facing the Mall include the street trees, travel lane alignment, and the quality of the retail fronting the Mall–just to name a few.
One of the points I stressed during my interview with the ULI panel was that we need to view the Mall within a larger Central Denver context. The Mall should not be viewed only as a means to disperse throughout Downtown commuters from RTD bus and light rail stations. We need to view the Mall as one part of a larger Central Denver pedestrian accelerator and transit system that includes the proposed Downtown Circulator and future street car lines. By upgrading the Mall and Downtown Circulator busses to street cars and operating them as a single two-way loop system instead of two stand-alone linear systems, we will have put in place the framework for a broader Central Denver street car system—just like the extensive one we used to have 100 years ago. Add to that Downtown street car loop future extensions south along Broadway/Lincoln, northeast and southwest along Larimer, northwest along 15th Street/29th Avenue, east and west along Colfax, and southeast to Cherry Creek, and we will have a transit system that serves the most densly populated districts in the entire metro area and that stimulates billions of dollars in economic development along the way. If we want to tie our Center City urban districts together and create a seemless urban zone surrounding and including Downtown, that is what we need to do—and the 16th Street Mall is where we start.
So, while issues like planters and trash cans and granite pavers are important, now is the time to envision the 16th Street Mall as something much bigger and better for Central Denver. It’s not something we’ll necessarily achieve in the near-term, but if we don’t imagine it and set it as our goal now, we’ll never achieve it. Is Denver ready to begin talking about its post-FasTracks future and bringing back its inner-city street car system? I am.
Street cars would also make it classier and more "touristy". The shuttles as they are are the ugliest things to be driving through Denver. It would also solve the paver problem.
Great editorial piece, Ken.
Denver's public transportation system is strong and will only get better with fastracks. However, fastracks will only improve our system in the one area where it already shines…bringing suburban commuters downtown.
I am in total agreement that Denver's first post-fastracks step should be to bolster the transit system where its needed and utilized the most: the urban core.
How this should be done is a matter of debate, but its a debate that needs to begin. It's going to be tricker politically than building suburban rail lines, but it's the single greatest step we can take toward making a more livable Denver with stronger, more integrated neighborhoods.
I don't mind the street car idea, I just think 16th street will look so bad if they tear out a lot of trees, even if new ones are planted. I also am concerned that the middle section of some parts of 16th will be removed so the buss lanes don't shift. I think that is one of the best parts of 16th having life on both sides and in the middle of the street. I think the intention is good, but the project will get budget cuts and it will end up looking bad and losing the uniquness down there, becoming another city street mall.
Joe
Like Ken said, they definately need to look at 16th street as more than just a ped mall or rough stitching for our patch quilt of bus services. I think they need to think SF's Market street. 1) bus handling – 16th needs a tunnel for buses coming inbound or a graceful way of entering and exiting downtown so they aren't caught in the same gridlock traffic. 2) an 'underground' for for lightrail and streetcar connections 3) make 16th street completely ped only – make the entire street walkable and for svc and delivery vehicles only. Euro city centers easily fill a street that wide. On game days and events Denver easily fills those streets.
ps: don't complain about cost to me. I'm not interested in having that discussion with anyone.
Well done, succinct editorial, Ken. I hope ULI listens to you!
Is there any consideration being given to, as a part of the overall Union Station/Central Platte Valley development, continuing the 16th Street shuttle through the valley and up and over I-25 into the Highlands. At a minimum going to just the other side of I-25 and changing over to street cars would be such an attractive/functional way of bringing commerce into downtown and up into the Highlands area for people from all over the Central Core. It seems unfortunate that they built all of those fancy bridges without even considering some form of public transportaion connection, and being along 16th street would make perfect sense as a continuation of the existing line.
great advocation for a stronger, better urban core – FT will do very little to address the needs of transit for the majority of people who live in the center.
i love the idea of a downtown 'loop' for the mall shuttle. it makes a much more sensible use of the shuttles and turnarounds. also, one MAJOR weakness of the downtown circulator is that is redundancy 16th and 18th are TOO close to each other to both need service.
if the circulator / loop used 16th and 20th primarily it would provide access for everybody within just TWO blocks all the way from 14th street to 22nd street.
this small change offers a better balance for the circulator, improves 20th street, and provides a major boost to encourage more and more private development for a larger part of DT.
Why should we plan for a bunch of street cars that will never be built?
Great stuff, folks. I should think that a key element of sorting out the politics of putting in streetcars would be to promote a line along Speer, at first between Downtown and Cherry Creek. The emphasis there needs to be on economic development and about tying the high-end shopping/dining in Cherry Creek with Downtown (particularly for tourists and conference-goers). This gets on board businessmen and particularly tax-averse politicians who might otherwise oppose the idea. If it's successful, the line can then be expanded to Highlands, east along Colfax, etc.
I'm no concrete expert, but I've seen some pretty amazing things done with concrete stamps and staining on HGTV. I hope they keep the granite, but if not I hope they can do more than the standard gray concrete.
I get a kick out of the ULI recomendations. I like the colored trash cans & planters, and could not care less about the bus lanes being concrete, as long as it was stamped/colored to fit in with the rest. The granite is not worth $1 million a year.
I like the planters because they add a lot of color to an otherwise drab landscape.
It would be best to replace the bus line down the 16th Street Mall with moving sidewalks the entire distance with breaks where streets cross and 12 feet either side. An elevagted monorail is also an idea worth investigating and pursing with stops every three blocks.
I walk the 16th St. Mall regularly (for the last ~15 yrs). Just in the last 2-3 yrs it seems to me like the pedestrian traffic is approaching the point that it's getting somewhat overcrowded (which is fantastic). At times you can hear a continuous din of honking bus horns as bus drivers play chicken with pedestrians. Restaurant patios take up sidewalk space (which is very cool) but sometimes create choke points for pedestrian traffic — I've observed people essentially forced into the bus lanes as waves of pedestrians funnel around a sidewalk patio. It just makes me wonder whether, longer term, the Mall is really able to support further growth in pedestrian traffic and big honkin buses at the same time. A good problem to be faced with I suppose, but something that should taken into consideration in terms of long range planning I think.
Thanks Ken! I agree 100% on street cars! No on the presently styrofoam-to-go-box rubber-tired jalopees. NO on removing trees. Who cares about the teletoobie planters, they need a professional dress code…huh? maybe just an upgrade on those….cha-ching marble-stepped? Then anything too major that impedes the predestrian traffic for a year will kill it, so maybe mock granite cobblestone where the track is laid and get into it Denver, live life, IT'S ALIVE!!! Take Action! Action! Action!
Ken,
I like your vision for the streetcar network, and I hope you keep getting a chance to promote it among decision-makers. I would point out, however, that you missed mentioning the "first" of the new streetcar lines, which will be the Downing/Welton/Downtown-Loop streetcar, which will use the existing downtown loop and Welton tracks, plus an extension along Downing to the 40th/40th station. It will be "streetcar" on Downing (intermixed with traffic, not separate), and will no longer be part of the "D" line of light rail. This is a natural component to turn a corner downtown to be part of a streetcar implementation of the new circulator (or a streetcar implementation of the 16th Street Mall shuttle) in the future.
The problem with the stamped/colored concrete solution is that when the inevitable repair is required, it is nearly impossible to match the color of the concrete as concrete fades over time. This would leave the mall looking like an unattractive quilt of concrete patches. The only ways to ensure that the mall surface is consistent is to go with boring gray concrete or continue to use stone or other unit pavers.
My preference would be for street cars to run parallel to 16th Street – on 15th & 17th – or perhaps 14th and 18th as some have suggested. RTD could then have lighter weight shuttle vehicles that aren't so damaging.
I agree with not tearing up the trees or messing with the basic design – I like the pedestrian areas in the middle of the street – and concur that the granite should be preserved.
In response to Joeindt – the mall was engineered to allow for a subway to be built underneath 16th – ultimately that is what needs to happen.
We shouldn't be so shortsighted with our immediate problem to ruin this grand street for future generations.
This is off subject but this morning I noticed a construction trailer on the site of the old parking garage at Fourteenth and Stout. It would be nice if they got something started there
Bob Hayes
"In response to Joeindt – the mall was engineered to allow for a subway to be built underneath 16th – ultimately that is what needs to happen."
A SUBWAY?!??!??? There's about 40 people between here and Kansas City. How the heck do we "need" a subway??? And how are we going to pay for it? Double the metro sales tax? Close a few schools and hospitals? Lay off half of Denver's PD and FD?
allen your grasp of demographics is truely remarkable. You either live in kansas city or under a very large rock. Welcome to Denver, there is 3 million people here and over 120,000 office workers downtown. Its close minded people such as yourself that vote down inovative options and do nothing about congestion and then we end up screwed. That is 20 seconds worth of reading that I would like back please
Actually, there is @2.4 million people in the Denver – Aurora MSA according the census bureau's 2005 estimates. Either way no where near the sort of population let alone density that would require a subway.
As for the number of workers downtown, the numbers I've seen put it at 110,000. Either way that is no where near the sort of volume that would make it worth a subway.
And the regional government has no plans for a subway.
So exactly why is worrying about a subway so important? Do you have a few hundered billion dollars sitting around you'd be willing to donate to build a subway system in Denver and are just too coy to tell use?
A tunnel/subway for about a mile, with about 3 stops isnt really that far fetched. If you want to talk density, dt is about 1 sq mile, so we have 120,000/sq mile. That seems pretty high density to me. Bus travel along the mall is slow w/o traffic. With traffic, you can basically walk faster. That forces more people on to the mall shuttle and that is ever more slower. Streetcars or LRV or bus circulators will continue to be slow and become slower. In the very least (hopefully) signal priority for them needs to get better. The problem is we aren't scaling for our future.
Allen…
Why is that you try to be so precise with some numbers (MSA), and then exaggerate about the actual cost of building a subway (few hundred billion?). Not the best way to win an argument. Also, as for Denver not being big enough to support a subway, I suggest you look at Rotterdam in The Netherlands. It's a smaller metro area, but they managed to build a subway.
As AWESOME as a subway would be, I dont think it is a realistic goal in the short term. I would be very happy with a streetcar system along 16th or a loop as Ken sugusted. Something does need to be done about the busses though, they are great, but that corridor has basicaly reached capacity for a bus system. They run busses every 2min during peak times and they are always packed, and often bunch up, reducing thier effectiveness. Perhaps we could use street cars on 16th, and use the buses for some other high capacity circulator service…
I like the idea of putting something underground, or moving the downtown loop to one way along the 16th St. Mall. This would create more pedestrian space along the street, and hopefully allow for more cafes & patios to extend into the street.
a) Downtown is one square mile? According to whom? If you go with the city of Denver's CBD neighborhood as "downtown" than maybe it's something around a square mile. But the CBD neighborhood is not Anormally what is referred to as downtown. When the Denver's downtown boosters talk about it's 110,000 jobs they're not only talking about the CBD neighborhood but Union Station, Auraria, Civic Center, North Capiol Hill and even parts of Lincoln Park, Five Points and Capitol Hill (going by official neighborhoods; (http://www.denvergov.org/DenverMaps/downloads/maps/citywide/Neighborhoods.pdf ).. That is where those 110,000 jobs are and that area is much large than a mesely square mile.
Yes, Rotterdam has a subway. IIRC it's a bit like DC's in that much of it actually isn't subterranean. I'm not sure why Rotterdam is an argument for subway in Denver. The Netherlands has about 10 million people crammed into an area the size of a thymbol. Density for some big cities in Holland, ones like Rotterdam, IIRC are often over 6-8,000 people / sq mi. IIRC even the most dense neighborhoods in Denver proper didn't break 2500 people / sq mi. I'm sorry though I couldn't find that reference. I thought I had somewhere a neighorhood / size / population list but I can't find it. The city of Denver as a whole doesn't break 1,500 people / sq mi. That is, it's about a 80% less dense than Rotterdam. And as we've seen the last few decades, other than a couple spots like Central Platte Valley and the Golden Triangle, it's unlikely to do anything but become even less dense (or at least stay the same).
As for the subway, sorry, I didn't realize we were talking about a short section of a line. I was assuming we were talking about building a system of subway lines. No reason for me to assume that.
But the cost of subways, even short segments, are enormous. NYC's proposed 2nd Avenue line has an estimated cost of about $18 billion for 16.5 miles. That's over $2 billion a mile!
Even a simple 2 track tunnel that would take LRT underground would likely cost $100 million / mile today. The Metropolitan Airport Commission (MAC) spent over $100 million for a 7400' tunnel under MSP back in 2000. That had only one station at the airport and did not have downtown's tangle of sewer lines, water lines, power lines, natural gas lines plus the added trickiness of squeezing into space in between foundations for skyscrapers without affecting them. They could bring in a standard boring machine and throw in the tunnel.
So what would a mile of tunnel cost in downtown Denver? $100 million? $200 million? $A billion? (hey, it's costing NYC $2 billion / mile after all) Where does that money come from?
And, again, to get back to the original point, why worry about the subway or even a simple tunnel when not a single city, county, regional or state agency is talking about putting one in???
I think streetcars are the ideal solution for 16th Street. A subway is completely unnecessary and would do nothing for, and probably harm, pedestrian activity along 16th Street. With the light rail and future commuter trains entering downtown roughly from the north and south there is no need for a subway that is roughly east-west. If you want a subway ride go jump on the one at DIA. I think the density of activity of street cars, pedestrians, and cafe patios can be managed successfully. I am sure there are very many examples of successful similar situations around the world. I would love to see some progress with the decision-makers in building a streetcar system throughout Denver. One question: If they have to remove the granite pavers to install streetcar tracks and potentially straighten the route for the tracks how much of the granite pavers can be reused? There probably still is a supply of the granite from the quarries it came from anyway.
Corey
Shift the free shuttle (or new streetcar) to 15th and 17th, and make 16th street 100% pedestrian.
I don't suppose there's a budget for all this….
Don't get me wrong, I love it all and like to see it happen. Preferably sometime before the Second Coming (Jesus, not iPhone).
Allen: Where are you getting your 1500 and 2500 density numbers? Denver is home to around 590000 people (2007 estimate) and takes up 154 square miles. However, DIA (the second largest airport in the world) is a whopping 53 square miles. So Denver's "real" density is 590000/101 = 5842 people per square mile. Even including DIA's land area results in a density of over 3800 people per square mile.
Interestingly enough, Rotterdam has almost the exact population of Denver: 585000 (2007 estimate). Covering 79.7 square miles, Rotterdam is 25% denser than Denver at 7430 people per square mile.
Great piece and debate. To diverge a second. One of the huge mistakes in my mind is the rail fare w/in the inner core. I work slightly past downtown off of the D Line..just far enough to make the walk a bit long to pull off during lunch. I commute from the Baker area. So $3.50 RT to home and work…not bad. Then another $3.50 RT into downtown for lunch as there aren't enough choices…Starts to not make sense. Yes, I could buy a monthly pass, but for other reasons I can't always take light rail and so it just doesn't add up. If you want to get me really interested in light rail, provide a cheaper inner city mid-day fare or a full day unlimited ticket at a more reasonable price.
While Fasttracks paints a nice picture it is primarily a highway based system. It does very little for those of us in the core neighborhoods and that leaves buses and their variability.
That said, back to 16th. What does work with light rail is the connectivity of the mall shuttle. It doesn't need nor should stop at every block though. Every other with timed or sensored lights would be more effective in the short term. In the future, the circulator on 15th/17th every 3-4 blocks would make sense for those trying to get from one end to the other. I think taking the shuttle off the mall entirely would be a mistake. It serves a purpose and works well with the short hop pedestrian flow.
From a design standpoint, the center median should stay as should the trees. It breaks up the street nicely and would be a mistake to lose them. Pavers…I prefer the granite. Stained/stamped concrete would be second. Plain concrete would be a HUGE mistake. Valid point earlier about colored concrete fading, but I'm not really opposed to the quilt work and they would blend in over time. Even the new granite pavers stand out for awhile.
Despite its hit and miss nature it's quite amazing that this urban renewal mall lasted and mostly works. There are plenty of others that haven't. We're very fortunate. Don't mess with it too much.
Finally…I love subways, but along 16th, no. As someone else noted, the surface shuttle and flow of people is a dynamic part of downtown. Maybe someday, but I'd rather see a trolley/shuttle up and down B'way from at least SoBo to Downtown than 1 mile along 16th.
Allen,
I was appreciating your arguments and I was following along until you claimed.. and then claimed again meaning it wasn't a typo.. that 16.5 Miles at 18billion was more than $2 billion a mile (its actually $1.09Billion/mile). I'm not sure what other numbers to trust anywhere else if you're either incapable of making such a calculation or are trying to inflate numbers that are large enough already just to make your points artifically stronger.
How about a slightly raised "monorail" type deal. Then we could have raised platforms for entry and the rest of 16th would be pretty much 100% pedestrian! It could run all the way out to Colfax and up 14th and 15th. Plus it would look really cool.
The thing is, after fasttracks is built out, and they we potentially have 'nexttracks', where are all of those trains going to go when they hit downdown proper. Has anyone actually rode the the buses going down 15th street when there is traffic? dt proper is 1/sq mile, with a daytime population of about 100k, right now. Pulling up stale stats doesn't really when an argument. Without some type of exclusive right of way for trains or buses, service will get bunched up through out the entire system. If they don't do a subway, transit lines will be limited for entering downtown. Meaning lots of little transfers to make the axis of the mall for example.
I think that the city planners and every one else involved in the planning of the 16th st. mall should really consider the growth projection of dt. It is growing fast. In the next 3yrs. there will be aprox. 2000 ppl liviving in or around the cen bus district. I believe that we should go under ground with the light rail along the mall for business commuters and above with trolly cars that link from the highlands neigh. through the cpv, to cherry creek. for shoppers & tourist. And hopefully they will go all out on the expense and make the whole entire project integrade with union station & spare no expense on making it the most beautiful dt in the WORLD!
I initially like the thought of an elevated trolly or somthing along 16th st. However, I think the implementation would be horrible. For one, the El in Chicago is loud and looks like shi#. Even if it does lend that city a sense of uniqueness, I don't think that's the image Denver should emulate. Even with a quiet "monorail" along 16th St., the tracks & trains would block the sun for any potential cafes below. Really, underground makes sense eventually. There's already going to be an underground portion to the new Union Station plan, I thought, so why not put the 16th st. bus line underground? Sure, in 2008 the traffic may not be there to require it, but what about 2020 or even 2025, when any plan will likely be completed? If the last 12-15 years are any indication, where the city of Denver alone has experienced about a 100K person population growth, its logical to assume that the city of Denver should get about another 100K+ during this time. Free up space on the mall for peds – they are what make the mall the mall, not the buses. Give peds easy access to a quick mover and have a reasonably aesthetic quality to it and the 16th St. mall will continue to grow into what was envisioned for it 25 years ago.
"Has anyone actually rode the the buses going down 15th street when there is traffic? dt proper is 1/sq mile, with a daytime population of about 100k, right now. Pulling up stale stats doesn't really when an argument."
JoeIndt –> Having worked in LoDo, I have rode the bus downtown. I haven't had huge problems on 15th or 17th. That aside, why not build some bus lanes?
As for the stats, they're no more "stale" than yours. We need to have numbers to quantify what is being done and to be able to then appropriately set our priorities. The city, county, state and federal governments only have a finite amount of resources at any given time.
I don't understand what you're getting at with "next tracks". The current plans for Fastracks do take into account how the trains will operate. Are you saying that we need to build a subway now just in case we decide to go ahead and execute another Fastracks-like project? Thanks
Eh I disagree. The amount of sun that would be blocked by a "monorail" is minimal(as I recall from diseny world….). Plus who really wants to trek underground on a nice sunny day just to ride up a few blocks?? honestly a subway sounds like overkill to me.. I also like the Trolly idea. But I REALLY want some sweet futuristic monorail cars!
"If the last 12-15 years are any indication, where the city of Denver alone has experienced about a 100K person population growth, its logical to assume that the city of Denver should get about another 100K+ during this time."
Good point. But how much of that has been in the core? Remember most of the city of Denver is actually suburban development. That is, how much of that growth occured in Hampden, Marston, Stapleton, DIA, Green Valley Ranch and other areas versus Five Points, Capitol Hill, Civic Center (aka Golden Triangle), Highland and others?
More so going forward where is that growth going to occur? Green Valley Ranch? Montbello? Hampden South? Union Station (aka Central Platte Valley)?
And how does that growth compare ot the metro as a whole? IIRC downtown Denver had just as may jobs in 2005 as they had in 1982 at the height of the oil boom. How do we know downtown isn't going to see another 25 year lull? After all, we are on the verge of social acceptance of telecommuting and working remotely. How much job growth is projected for downtown versus DIA/Pena area? Tech center? Interlochen?
That is, are we advocating building for jobs and residents that won't materialize for another 50 years, if ever?
What about a gondola that runs up and down the mall lol. Emulating our deep culture of skiing
Hey Ken, with all this talk about a NexTracks, do you think you could make public the plan Steve Boland and I put together a couple of years ago?
That would make for a good blog post / discussion, don't you think?
I've still got the files if you don't.
(This comment may be more private than public, but I assume you'll see it, so…)
Atlanta built a pretty sizable subway when it was no bigger than Denver. Here in DC we're building a subway in the *suburbs* and it's not costing us that much. This *can* be done.
Actually, it could probably be done cheaper than any other subway on the continent. Since 16th street is a pedestrian mall you don't have the problem of needing a mezzanine to get riders onto a central platform, which means a cut and cover tunnel only has to be half as deep.
I don't imagine a one-mile cut and cover tunnel with no mezzanine level would be all that expensive. You could probably do it for something like $200 or $300 million, which sounds like a lot but is less than what most of the individual FasTracks lines are costing. Let me say that again: You could probably do a downtown subway for less money than any of the suburban FasTracks tails. Does anyone really think a downtown subway would be less valuable to the region than the Arvada line?
Allen,
You talk about suburban development on a site that is specifically about urban infill? Pretty much everything on this board is about how much development is going on in the core of the city.
Development in Denver is only going to intensify as gas gets more and more expensive. Going back to Europe as an example, they deal with the high cost of gasoline with good transit and density. I suspect Americans will have to adapt in a similar manner.
"Allen,
You talk about suburban development on a site that is specifically about urban infill? Pretty much everything on this board is about how much development is going on in the core of the city."
As a citizen of the city of Denver I am questioning the importance of possible projects going on in the city I choose to live in. I don't see how questioning spending a couple hundred million dollars on a street that is already very well covered by transit is talking about "suburban development". I simply want to make sure we have enough resources for our schools, first responders, parks, social workers and all the other services a really wonderful city provides.
The mission here i believe is to grasp a vision and communicate those visions or ideas to one another.I love the city of denver and want the best for our city. What i think the objective here is not just the past projection of growth or lack there of in denver. I believe it is what we would like for it to be or what we promote it to be. seems that we want our cities dt to grow. don't we all agree? So the theory build and they will come is kinda at play here. The city of denver is @ it's highest pop. ever. and so is the country. I believe that if we grow by subway system or fast tracks, or monorail, union station rebuilding, couple of very needed "world reknown signature" office towers, affordable hotel towers, and many, many more affordable residential towers, the people will come dt, not just because of the buildings but because of the envirnment or the vibe. I would love to live dt but simple can't afford to. I took a vacation to Chicago just to see the tall buildings there they are sweet! the people there have a swagger because of them. And bragg about the fact that they are catching New York city. Everyday and night in dt chicago was poppin. So how do we get these poppin new people and there business to dt denver build and they will come! you don't wait for a flood and then build a damn. you build the damn and then the rain comes. We residents of denver need to be and deserve to be second to none. a subway would pay for its self. And would get a gracious grant from the fed gov. probably. But just keep in mind that excel just rented out 350,000sq feet of a building that dosen't even exist yet in dt denver and also we lost the bid on boeing here a few years ago from lack of OFFICE space.
The more I think about it the more I like the monorail proposal. Monorails would not create as much of a shadow as a Chicago style "El" train and actually not much more shade than street trees. My problem with the subway is that it would just go one mile along 16th and not continue on. Also, I am not a big fan of having to go subterranean. I have lived in San Francisco and DC and find subway stations dingy and depressing. The mononrail could continue over to Auraria and on to the Pepsi Center/Elitch's and over the river to the Children's Museum/Aquarium and on to Mile High Stadium. It could be a tremendous way to connect all of the disparate attractions.
Keep in mind also that the city proper of Denver is quickly reaching build-out and I think that we are starting to see density build up. Look around the central neighborhoods and see all of the tri-plexes that have replaced single family homes as well as the number of proposed condo/ apartment mid-rises and such.
A monorail, or any elevated train, would likely need a significant support structure and therefore leave a significant shadow imprint, not to metnion look like crap. Seattle has a mile-long monorail, so we can see what we'd be in store for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Seattle_Center_Monorail.jpg. I, for one, would rather have a submerged train, especially in winter.
interesting…but its a total waste to even hypothesize about a subway / elevated on 16th..why? it's ALREADY a 100% dedicated transit street. it's completed dedicated to transit, so no use or improvement in taking that transit below or above the street.
however, the bus IS too slow..the lights should be timed a little better and the stops should be every OTHER block.
the loop needs to be larger…20th street and 16th street gives us coverage from 14th to 22nd!!
people can walk a measily two blocks and what an economic development engine for northern downtown!
We should seriously consider moving the buses off 16th St to 15th St and 17th St, make 16th all human powered transit, meaning for both pedestrian and bicycle. In each direction keep the existing interior bus lane curb alignment, extend the outer curb to make the sidewalks wider, and there you have bike lanes in each direction. There are no Northwest / Southeast crosstown bike routes in the middle of downtown. This makes it very dicey for bicyclists.